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General Category => General Discussion Board => Topic started by: chestercopperpot on May 16, 2019, 08:05:05 PM

Title: Is a pinned upper and lower required?
Post by: chestercopperpot on May 16, 2019, 08:05:05 PM
I know this has been talked about before but I can’t find much. Is it required to have the upper and lower pinned together on a CT other? I want to know if it’s a legal issue not a feel good issue.  I have to be honest I’m asking because I have been hearing some really unreal shit at gun shops lately. I’ve heard complete bull about magazines and having parts ETC. I find it alarming some of the miss information people that work at gun shops are giving. So I would appreciate a yes or no type answer because a upper and lower pinned together isn’t a grey area it’s either the way it is or isn’t.
Title: Re: Is a pinned upper and lower required?
Post by: Flatulence on May 16, 2019, 08:29:27 PM
Not required.
Title: Re: Is a pinned upper and lower required?
Post by: chestercopperpot on May 16, 2019, 08:34:53 PM
Thank you. I hope the FFL s that tell people you will get arrested if it’s not pinned see this.
Title: Re: Is a pinned upper and lower required?
Post by: M1A_All_Day on May 16, 2019, 08:45:08 PM
If you get one that is "pinned", it's probably just a takedown pin that is drilled a bit deeper in the pin itself where the detent seats (or some other special version of a takedown pin that seats the detent overly-deep). I had a SGW a long time ago that got the detent stuck up there and the easiest way to get it out was to make one cut across the head of the takedown pin, though the detent, then the tail end half of the detent could push right up into the takedown pin head and it came out.
Title: Re: Is a pinned upper and lower required?
Post by: Flatulence on May 17, 2019, 08:20:51 AM
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If you get one that is "pinned", it's probably just a takedown pin that is drilled a bit deeper in the pin itself where the detent seats (or some other special version of a takedown pin that seats the detent overly-deep). I had a SGW a long time ago that got the detent stuck up there and the easiest way to get it out was to make one cut across the head of the takedown pin, though the detent, then the tail end half of the detent could push right up into the takedown pin head and it came out.

Troy does it on purpose I guess for CYA. They are easily removed with a drill or a mallet and punch if you are so inclined to do so.
Title: Re: Is a pinned upper and lower required?
Post by: M1A_All_Day on May 17, 2019, 08:54:31 AM
While it would be a PITA to keep it pinned (cleaning), I can see why they'd play it safe.
Sear blocks, non-spec pivot pins, non-spec FCG pins, FCG pocket webbing, etc- Colt wrote the book on it.
Title: Re: Is a pinned upper and lower required?
Post by: joelcramer on May 17, 2019, 09:40:47 AM
In CT as with the whole country there is no guidance from any law that tells us what an "other" is. There is no guidance on what features an "other" needs to have. The only definition of "other" is that it does not fit the description of a long gun or a pistol. That is it. The "other has been around for a long time but nobody really knew it. The first "other" that was brought to the top was the Mossberg pistol grip shotguns. FFLs were told that those could not be sold to anyone under 21 because they do not fit the description of a long gun so they were to be treated like a pistol.
Title: Re: Is a pinned upper and lower required?
Post by: chestercopperpot on May 17, 2019, 01:35:59 PM
Thanks for the reply’s. The issue I have with it is changing parts. I simply wanted to change my muzzle device and It was annoying trying to do it without being able to use my vice block. I got it done but it could have been much easier. The other issue I have with it is what people who work at gun shops tell you. I was told yesterday that anyone who sells a other without a pinned upper and lower is going to get in “big” trouble. Here are some other things I have been told lately from a few gun shops.

You can’t have a spare bolt carrier group.
Hex mags are illegal in CT.
You can’t have a spare upper receiver. Even if you have a preban or registered rifle. 

Not trying to cause a big issue I understand the laws are very confusing. There are also plenty of gun shops that give good solid information. I almost feel bad for the owners because it’s always some younger kid that works at the store that gives crap information.
Title: Re: Is a pinned upper and lower required?
Post by: joelcramer on May 17, 2019, 01:54:42 PM
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Thanks for the reply’s. The issue I have with it is changing parts. I simply wanted to change my muzzle device and It was annoying trying to do it without being able to use my vice block. I got it done but it could have been much easier. The other issue I have with it is what people who work at gun shops tell you. I was told yesterday that anyone who sells a other without a pinned upper and lower is going to get in “big” trouble. Here are some other things I have been told lately from a few gun shops.

You can’t have a spare bolt carrier group.
Hex mags are illegal in CT.
You can’t have a spare upper receiver. Even if you have a preban or registered rifle. 

Not trying to cause a big issue I understand the laws are very confusing. There are also plenty of gun shops that give good solid information. I almost feel bad for the owners because it’s always some younger kid that works at the store that gives crap information.
Misinformation abounds in every area not just guns. In this case just about everything you were told is wrong. You can have all the spare parts you want including bolt carriers.  The only mags that are banned in CT are those over 10 rounds. What is so special about Hex Mags that would make them banned? As for the upper receiver, as long as you have a legal use for it it is legal to have. The old theory of constructive possession went out the door when ATF went after Thompson Center about the ability to swap out parts on the contender to make a rifle or a pistol. ATF said you "could" make a short barreled rifle by adding the pistol grip and a long barrel. The court said nonsense.
Title: Re: Is a pinned upper and lower required?
Post by: CT203 on May 17, 2019, 01:55:38 PM
Why would Hex Mags be illegal?

I could maybe get there on the “spare” upper if you had a VFG on it am not other rifle that could accept (registered AW, preban, SCR, etc.), but this is the issue... with no real guidance, a lot of people at gun shops are making assumptions and presenting them as fact.
Title: Re: Is a pinned upper and lower required?
Post by: joelcramer on May 17, 2019, 01:58:05 PM
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Why would Hex Mags be illegal?

I could maybe get there on the “spare” upper if you had a VFG on it am not other rifle that could accept (registered AW, preban, SCR, etc.), but this is the issue... with no real guidance, a lot of people at gun shops are making assumptions and presenting them as fact.
Or just repeating what they heard another customer or employee say.
Title: Re: Is a pinned upper and lower required?
Post by: GULFVT on May 17, 2019, 03:19:26 PM
I believe that the Hex Mag thing was the fact their first gen 10/30 mags had a removable "block" so all you had to do was remove the block and add a new follower amd 30 rd spring and you had a standard cap mag.  they have since changed their design to eliminate that. 

That was my understanding on the Hex Mags
Title: Re: Is a pinned upper and lower required?
Post by: BerettaBoy213 on May 17, 2019, 09:00:42 PM
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Misinformation abounds in every area not just guns. In this case just about everything you were told is wrong. You can have all the spare parts you want including bolt carriers.  The only mags that are banned in CT are those over 10 rounds. What is so special about Hex Mags that would make them banned? As for the upper receiver, as long as you have a legal use for it it is legal to have. The old theory of constructive possession went out the door when ATF went after Thompson Center about the ability to swap out parts on the contender to make a rifle or a pistol. ATF said you "could" make a short barreled rifle by adding the pistol grip and a long barrel. The court said nonsense.

So "constructive posession" is not a real thing now (if ever)?
Title: Re: Is a pinned upper and lower required?
Post by: Will1776 on May 17, 2019, 09:05:16 PM
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I believe that the Hex Mag thing was the fact their first gen 10/30 mags had a removable "block" so all you had to do was remove the block and add a new follower amd 30 rd spring and you had a standard cap mag.  they have since changed their design to eliminate that. 

That was my understanding on the Hex Mags

I believe the swap is still possible, but it comes from the factory as a 10 round mag, not a 30 round mag modified to only accept 10 rounds. Also any cop is going to test the magazine by seeing how many rounds he can squeeze in. I'm of the opinion that a cop isn't going to look further if he can't squeeze more than 10 in  :dunno:
Title: Re: Is a pinned upper and lower required?
Post by: CT203 on May 17, 2019, 09:51:59 PM
Yea, I agree with Will. The fact that you can modify something doesn’t inherently mean it’s illegal.  The Hexmag - regardless of generation - are fine until someone does something illegal to modify it from a factory 10/30 to a 30.

Under the same logic, basically any 10/30 would be illegal because you could drill the retainer pin at the bottom, remove the plate, cut the round limiter and replace the spring lol.  Could be done but the mag isn’t illegal until some actual broke the law.
Title: Re: Is a pinned upper and lower required?
Post by: Flatulence on May 17, 2019, 10:51:07 PM
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Yea, I agree with Will. The fact that you can modify something doesn’t inherently mean it’s illegal.  The Hexmag - regardless of generation - are fine until someone does something illegal to modify it from a factory 10/30 to a 30.

Under the same logic, basically any 10/30 would be illegal because you could drill the retainer pin at the bottom, remove the plate, cut the round limiter and replace the spring lol.  Could be done but the mag isn’t illegal until some actual broke the law.


If we were worried about it, no FFLs would be selling the Troy or MFT mags. Same goes for threaded barrels, etc. It what the customer does with it that matters.

I dont sell hex mags because of the amount of failures I have seen customers in the range have with them.
Title: Re: Is a pinned upper and lower required?
Post by: joelcramer on May 17, 2019, 11:24:25 PM
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So "constructive posession" is not a real thing now (if ever)?
It is only a thing if you have no legal use for the parts you have. The Contender case made it clear that just because you can is not enough.
Title: Re: Is a pinned upper and lower required?
Post by: Bottom Rung on May 18, 2019, 08:39:25 AM
I had always wondered about the Contender. Interesting information.

Title: Re: Is a pinned upper and lower required?
Post by: M1A_All_Day on May 18, 2019, 11:47:11 AM
Great example of how gun owners are their worst enemy, asking so many self-prohecizing questions about minutiae of gun laws that don't even exist. Good, sane advice in here and I always appreciate the sanity-check from seasoned FFLs (thank you).

RE: Ability to remove upper from lower on a CT-Compliant "Other" firearm... I am not a lawyer- but the by-far the biggest Federal legal precedent I remember when considering constructive possession is US v. Thompson. From Wikipedia GCS article:

Quote
Owning both a short barrel and a legal-length rifle could be construed as intent to build an illegal, unregistered SBR. This possibility was contested and won in the U.S. Supreme Court case of United States v. Thompson-Center Arms Company. ATF lost the case, and was unable to prove that possession of a short barrel for the specific pistol configuration of a Thompson Contender is illegal. ATF later released ruling 2011-4[19] to clarify the legal status of owning such conversion kits.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Thompson-Center_Arms_Co. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Thompson-Center_Arms_Co.)

ATF 2011-4[19]:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2011-4-pistols-configured-rifles-rifles-configured-pistols/download (https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2011-4-pistols-configured-rifles-rifles-configured-pistols/download)
Title: Re: Is a pinned upper and lower required?
Post by: Will1776 on May 18, 2019, 01:58:45 PM
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If we were worried about it, no FFLs would be selling the Troy or MFT mags. Same goes for threaded barrels, etc. It what the customer does with it that matters.

I dont sell hex mags because of the amount of failures I have seen customers in the range have with them.

Aren’t the Troy mags glued shut?
Title: Re: Is a pinned upper and lower required?
Post by: CT203 on May 18, 2019, 02:02:03 PM
The issue is that we are all law abiding citizens, and in the absence of clear law - assumptions are made as to what the law “must” mean.  Then people start passing their opinion as fact and it continues the cycle of misinformation. 
Title: Re: Is a pinned upper and lower required?
Post by: Bottom Rung on May 18, 2019, 03:48:49 PM
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Aren’t the Troy mags glued shut?

They are.
Title: Re: Is a pinned upper and lower required?
Post by: Zindo on May 19, 2019, 09:50:28 PM
There is NO Law, Regulation, or directive that makes unpinning upper and lower a punishable offense. Troy was worried that someone would swap and not be smart enough to re-attach the fore grip and make it a SBR.