InRange - M855A1 against Russian armor

[imahangtia]

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[BerettaBoy213]

855A1 is a scam to sell new rifles, magazines and ammo to uncle sam.

[Bottom Rung]

M855A1 in a very round about way is actually a sign of intelligence from the military.  For years, we have been cutting back our military trying to make it lighter and more maneuverable to better deal with the fluid battlefields of the War on Terror.

Meanwhile, thinking people kept pointing to larger countries with well equipped or improving militaries saying, “we still may end up fighting those guys”.  So think of M855A1 as a concession to the reality that we may have to fight an army that isn’t third world, an actual army that equips their men with body armor.  Sure the round itself isn’t so great, but at least it shows thought.

Hopefully, our nation can improve it’s small arms situation effectively over the coming years.

[BerettaBoy213]

M855A1 in a very round about way is actually a sign of intelligence from the military.  For years, we have been cutting back our military trying to make it lighter and more maneuverable to better deal with the fluid battlefields of the War on Terror.

Meanwhile, thinking people kept pointing to larger countries with well equipped or improving militaries saying, “we still may end up fighting those guys”.  So think of M855A1 as a concession to the reality that we may have to fight an army that isn’t third world, an actual army that equips their men with body armor.  Sure the round itself isn’t so great, but at least it shows thought.

Hopefully, our nation can improve it’s small arms situation effectively over the coming years.

So it wears out your guns faster, requires NEW rifles and mags and DOESN'T penetrate BA any better yet still "shows thought?" Either go bigger or accept the limits of .22 bullets, but don't try to have it both ways. One of the worst decisions this country has ever made (militarily) was accept SS109 (M855 / 62gr) and dropping 55gr'ers. Bullets are for suppression, not for killing anyways.

[Bottom Rung]

Uh, okay, I’ve let this sit longer than I’d like so here goes.

I wasn’t very clear in my first post. So let me break down my thoughts this way.

1. M855, green tip, is crap. It penetrates better than M193 but sucks on soft tissue. Plus it isn’t as accurate as M193. We agree on that.

2. M193 is terrible on steel/sheet metal, well, basically anything hard. So there is a very legitimate need for better penetration for the infantry.

3. We knew M855 was bad nearly as soon as we employed it, but were able to dismiss it. The issue re-emerged dramatically in all of our GWOT fighting starting in 2001. The guys (Special Forces/SOCOM/JSOC types) that have done the bulk of the killing have been given other options. Primarily, they have been allowed to use 77 grain open tip match bullets, namely MK262. It is/was a good answer but still doesn’t fix the ammo problems for the larger force.

4. Trying to produce a bullet that will work against the latest body armor shows thought because we haven’t touched the topic for nearly twenty years.  We are way behind the curve. We sat on our hands while China and Russia have specifically been matching their bullet’s AP abilities to our latest and greatest body armor.

5. I’m not saying M855A1 is a good answer, but doing something in this case is better than doing nothing.

6. M855A1 does not require new guns. The Marines chose the M27 IAR (HK 416) for a bunch of other reasons.  Nobody else has changed anything.

7. The PMAG adoption was bound to happen. It’s a better mag than the USGI aluminum mags. It’s a battle proven design. The military finally smartened up and adopted it. The better feed angle is just a plus.

8. In Range was incorrect in regards to the pursuit of a larger caliber. It’s very much alive, albeit quietly, in the weapons development groups of SF. I would suspect that if a workable solution is achieved the findings will be past on to regular forces.

9. M855A1 is mostly breaking bolts on M4s and shorter barreled ARs.  If you have an AR it’s a good idea to have a spare bolt. It is not uncommon to see locking lugs sheared off on the AR/M4/16 rifle.  The guys that shoot their ARs a lot, see this all the time with standard 5.56. So is M855A1 breaking guns? Yes and no. If you or I were real pipehitters we would have encountered this issue already with standard 5.56.

10. Finally, bullets are still for killing the enemy.  Automatic weapons can suppress the enemy, but by in large the purpose is to kill the enemy not make them hide.

[BerettaBoy213]

1-5: understood.

6: given the much higher pressures and steel tip of M855A1 reports are of MUCH higher wear rates on rifles, which means they'll have to be replaced faster and precipitate the .mil into looking into something other than the M4 to solve this "problem" they just created for themselves. It comes off a bit fishy to me that DOD just bought a product which is going to push them into buying...another product (two actually since you need new mags to not destroy you're rifles' feed lips)! Clever sales pitch by the MID, ammirite?

8. See You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login for seeming evidence of a 6.5mm rifle in the near future. The author knows little of the subject, but from what I can see they're all using cased telescopic ammo as the solution to having a heavier bullet.

9. My understanding is most bolt-shear issues (over-pressure issues generally) are solvable by just pushing the gas port forward (carbine > midi) and/or lengthening the barrel (to push it even further forward). Oh, and don't treat a closed-bolt weapon as an MG (silly SEALs!).

In none of the above am I seriously disagreeing with anything in you later post.

In a side note; if the Stoner design is going be laid to rest by DOD (see link above) does this mean AR's are no longer "weapons of war?"

[Bottom Rung]

I’m guessing you have been loosely following DoD’s small arms development as well then.

Between the telescopic ammo, submachine gun thingy, the various new long range rounds being explored, potential .338 LM medium machine gun, a ton of other inquiries/requests, the botched MHS nonsense, and much more, I have absolutely no idea whether M855A1 is going to be seen as a reason to buy a new gun or not.

Unfortunately, anybody who is honest is forced to acknowledge the M4 is still top dog world wide. I’m not so sure the M4 is that good or we are just in a small arms development stalemate.  I tend to think it’s the latter.

Yes, the sooner the military adopts something more futuristic, the sooner we can simply enjoy our relics formerly known as weapons of war, WMDs, etc.

Fun stuff....

[Bottom Rung]

Deleted post. I tried to edit something and some how ended up quoting myself. It is late. I’m a dope.

[MrNuke]

Deleted post. I tried to edit something and some how ended up quoting myself. It is late. I’m a dope.

  You won't be graded, don't worry. 

[Bottom Rung]

  You won't be graded, don't worry. 

That’s fantastic! Thanks.