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Author Topic: Less than lethal ammo for home defense.  (Read 3643 times)

Offline MCS Precision - dcmdon

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Re: Less than lethal ammo for home defense.
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2012, 08:37:00 AM »
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Re: Less than lethal ammo for home defense.
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2012, 09:33:49 AM »
Some people have a misconception on the "duty to retreat". As it stands we do have a some what reasonable "castle" law. Just wish they'd add language saying the criminal or anyone related to the criminal cannot sue if the criminal ends up being a bullet backstop for the victim when they commit a crime.

From MCS Precision - dcmdon's link above...
Quote
A.  Duty to retreat § 53a-19 (b) (1)
(One such / Another) circumstance is that a person is not justified in using deadly physical force upon another person if (he/she) knows that (he/she) can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety by retreating.  This disqualification requires a defendant to retreat instead of using deadly physical force whenever two conditions are met: 1) a completely safe retreat is in fact available to (him/her); and 2) (he/she) knows that (he/she) can avoid the necessity of using deadly physical force by making that completely safe retreat.  The law stresses that self-defense cannot be retaliatory. It must be defensive and not punitive.

The term "complete safety," as used in this statute, means without any injury to the defendant whatsoever.  A person acts "knowingly" with respect to a circumstance described in a statute when (he/she) is aware that such circumstance exists.  <See Knowledge, Instruction 2.3-3.>

It is important to remember that the defendant has no burden whatsoever to prove that (he/she) could not have retreated with complete safety or that (he/she) didn't know that a safe retreat was possible before (he/she) used physical force against <insert name of other person>.  To the contrary, you may only reject (his/her) defense on the basis of this statutory disqualification if you find that the state has proved beyond a reasonable doubt that (he/she) did know that (he/she) could retreat with complete safety.

Exception for dwelling
As a general rule, a defendant is not required to retreat in (his/her) own dwelling before (he/she) may use force.  A dwelling is defined in our law as a place which is usually occupied by a person lodging therein at night.  "Usually occupied" means customary or routine nightly occupancy.   Thus, occupation for some period of time is required.  In considering whether a house is the defendant's dwelling, consider evidence such as where the defendant's clothes and personal effects were kept.2

[<If the case involves a question of co-dwellers:>  To this general rule there is an exception which you may or may not apply here, which is for you to determine as a question of fact.  That exception is that one claiming self-defense in (his/her) own dwelling has the duty to retreat from a co-dweller before (he/she) may employ force against that co-dweller.  A co-dweller is a person who also is usually lodged in those premises at night.

Accordingly, you must first determine if the state has proved that <insert name of other person> was a co-dweller with the defendant at <insert location>.  If the state has failed to prove that <insert name of other person> was a co-dweller, then you go no further on this issue as the defendant would have no duty to retreat.  If, however, you find that the state has proved that <insert name of other person> was a co-dweller with the defendant, you would then consider whether the defendant had a duty to retreat in accordance with the previously stated rule that a person must retreat before using deadly physical force if (he/she) knows that (he/she) can retreat with complete safety.

If you find that the state has proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant and <insert name of other person> were co-dwellers and that a retreat with complete safety was available to the defendant and that the defendant knew it, but did not retreat, you shall then find that the state has proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was not justified in using deadly force.]

All that said, using non lethal force my appeal to those who feel they cannot pull the trigger and take a human life. Not everyone is capable of taking a life if theirs is in danger. Unfortunately even with the best training there will be some who just cannot pull the trigger to take a life in self defense. For those folks less than leathal may be their only choice for self protection.

Online SPOProds-Sean O.

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Re: Less than lethal ammo for home defense.
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2012, 09:53:26 AM »
I don't know how I feel about this. If you carry a gun it's to KILL the BG because your life is in danger. When adrenaline is pumping or drugs/alcohol are involved non-lethal ammo may not even make the BG hesitate. I know if you shot me with a bean bag I'd be running at you full force because I know your gun isn't "real", even worse if I have a gun myself. If your not going to use lethal ammo, don't carry or use a gun for self-defense, stick to plinking and hunting. Pepper spray, a baseball bat or metal pipe is probably a better idea, there's no flash and no bang that's going to disorient you in darkened situations while fighting for your life.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 09:56:52 AM by SPOProds-Sean O. »
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Re: Less than lethal ammo for home defense.
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2012, 01:50:10 PM »
Haven... do other states have that provision? 


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Re: Less than lethal ammo for home defense.
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2012, 01:52:59 PM »
+1 spo.  If it wasn't lethal at longer than arms length a gun would be a pretty poor defensive tool.  Defensive spray or even hornet spray is far better.

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Re: Less than lethal ammo for home defense.
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2012, 08:20:41 PM »
Quote
Pepper spray, a baseball bat or metal pipe is probably a better idea, there's no flash and no bang that's going to disorient you in darkened situations while fighting for your life.

I can see where you're coming from here. But at the same time, realizing the strength & wild determination of a particular intruder who may be loaded on meth or coke is staggering. There was one in Torrington IIRC who picked up a GRANITE BENCH and threw it through a shop window on Main Street (This was when my mother worked at Laria's years ago). Think about how well you would fare against a VERY angry Gorilla, with only a ball bat. Just my two cents.


I wouldn't agree with going after an intruder with a can of hornet spray... It sounds like a good way to get sued by the scumbag. God forbid I ever have to use force against an intruder, it is going to be entirely LETHAL force; if only for the fact that I do not intend on accosting someone who is just after a T.V. or whatever material possessions he is after. If the intruder comes AT me after his ONE warning... then that force is appropriately applied. I make him aware that I have a gun. If he sees it, and continues his assault then at that time I assume he is no longer rational, and intends to cause me grave bodily harm.

The intruder gets ONE verbal warning. ONE.



They have three choices. Get down on the floor & wait for the police to arrive, make a run for the door, or charge me & get shot.


Quote
I have seen some good arguments about using and not using less than lethal 00 rubber buckshot as a home defense round. Pros: less penetration, still makes a scary sound to chase off intruder, + due to Connecticut horrible retreat laws.  Though?

If you're on the street, you have a duty to retreat. Inside your home, there is none... PROVIDING you have reason to believe that they intend to, and are capable of causing you grave bodily harm/injury (and I constitute any object short of a rubber chicken in their hand as a legitimate weapon). Using rubber buckshot is a good way to get killed, or lose all of your worldly possessions.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 08:24:27 PM by GreggAndrews »
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Offline sgrindrod

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Re: Less than lethal ammo for home defense.
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2012, 07:16:36 PM »
Non-lethal rounds are about as stupid as taking a warning shot.  If you're pulling the trigger you better mean business!

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Less than lethal ammo for home defense.
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2012, 12:24:03 PM »
I can see it now.  Someone kills someone with a rubber bullet and gets charges with manslaughter because his intent was not to use lethal force so therefore how could you defend using it.  For me I have two big German shepherds that will deter most.  If anyone gets by them then someone better bring a mop because the 870 is going to make a mess.

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Re: Less than lethal ammo for home defense.
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2012, 12:27:10 PM »
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Online vm1970

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Re: Less than lethal ammo for home defense.
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2012, 02:21:21 PM »
Only non lethal ammo I own is when I throw it at someone
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Online RayJay

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Re: Less than lethal ammo for home defense.
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2012, 02:57:01 PM »
If you carry a gun it's to KILL the BG because your life is in danger.

Again...  No it isn't.  Your reason for using deadly force is to STOP an aggressor's actions that you reasonably believe will cause grave physical injury or death.  Is it a possibility that your level of force through the use of a firearm can cause the death of the aggressor?  Sure is, but it isn't your intent.  Your intent is to stop them, not kill, maim or intimidate them.
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Re: Less than lethal ammo for home defense.
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2012, 09:20:00 PM »
I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.